THE ROVER SD1 FORUM

THE JJ · SD1 User Joined: 20 Dec 2007 Posts: 115 Location: wirral

Just for info after consulting heritage cd rom the torque setting for the axle to trailing link nut is 37lb ft.I am suprised and worried this has sheared an M10 thread.I also have Madrases finest arms!not yet on car though,let us know how you get on Chris JJ

kiwi_sd1 · Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:18 am Post subject:

Ahh, okay thanks. I've just been out and had a look, and my trailing arms are box section whereas it seems standard ones are a rod Question

THE JJ · SD1 User Joined: 20 Dec 2007 Posts: 115 Location: wirral

box section ?any pics there pal sounds different.Regards JJ

gogs · Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:35 am Post subject: suspension

hi i welded angle plate along tie bars to strengthen them seemed easier to attatch than box section?

kiwi_sd1 · Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:53 am Post subject:

Hi - didn't want to hijack this thread, so I've put a picture in the Members Car Profiles section, under my Black Vitesse thread.

cheers

ramon alban · Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject:

kiwi_sd1 wrote:

sorry to jump in here and show my ignorance , but where are these axle cups being talked about? which part number are they from here

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thanks

Clearly seen welded to the trailing arm brackets here:

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Both sides of bracket - of course - four in all.

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Ramon

chris_derby · Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject:

Sorted, Rimmers sent me another trailing arm in the post bless them! Now, if fitting poly bushes on the trailing arm, would it be better to reduce the torque setting? As the poly bushes are a lot harder & will not compress as much? Any ideas folks??

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Auto Vitesse, gonna be a beast!

THE JJ · SD1 User Joined: 20 Dec 2007 Posts: 115 Location: wirral

hope these pics help.The nyloc will only tighten up so far as washer CRC 95(10.3MM INNER HOLE)stops at the machined face,clearing the m10 thread but not the smooth part.The smooth part being that which the nylon sleeve sits on.The polys dont compress as much as the softer NAM 5234 sponge bushes.Hence no need for the additional large holed washer.The large washer/large hole shown against large washer/small hole crc95 in previous pic.TTFN jj

ramon alban · Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject:

THE JJ wrote:

Hence no need for the additional large holed washer.

John, I'm not sure the geometry would support that, because the extra washers forward of the axle brackets push the brackets rearwards to change the relationship of the torque tube with the cross member.

If so, no washer = no change in geometry = no change in pressure on the cross member bushes = no reduction in suspension noise from those bushes.

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Ramon

THE JJ · SD1 User Joined: 20 Dec 2007 Posts: 115 Location: wirral

Hello Ramon,ive just been playing with the various arm bushes and found that the yellow polys i have are very firm.If i was to fit the extra washer there would be too much stress on the m10 thread.It doesnt help that none of the four bushes are equal in depth! one measuring nearly 1.22mm than the shallowest.This is obviouly a manufacturing flaw and im well cheesed off about it.I purchased these through rimmers and will be speaking to them first thing.Its as though they didn't trim off the excess after moulding them.I compared them to the original rubber ones and to the spongey type too.and only one poly is perfect.As if it wasnt hard enough on the m10 thread without adding extra poly thickness into the equation.A small video clip of arm and bush

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chris_derby · Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:01 pm Post subject:

Ramon(or anybody!), do you think it would be a good idea then to remove the washers that have been welded to the axle? And if so, what do I replace them with? As there are no axle cups, would it be acceptable to not bother with them? Or does the trailing arm definately need them to properly locate the training arm in the axle? Also are the axle cups still available?

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Auto Vitesse, gonna be a beast!

ramon alban · Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject:

chris_derby wrote:

Ramon(or anybody!), do you think it would be a good idea then to remove the washers that have been welded to the axle? And if so, what do I replace them with? As there are no axle cups, would it be acceptable to not bother with them? Or does the trailing arm definately need them to properly locate the training arm in the axle? Also are the axle cups still available?

Chris, I think that you must eventually change to a safer arrangement, and my thinking is based on my best shot at an explanation as follows:

Its NOT the trailing arm that needs locating. The original design was for trailing arm BUSH LOCATION cups welded on both sides of the bracket with a hole in the bracket larger than the rod which passed through it.

As long as the cups are there, the arm can move about within the rubbery constraints of the bushes to smooth out/limit road vibration reaching the cars body. The new type Poly bushes negate that process by providing stiffer suspension with advantages on roadholding but disadvantages with transmitted noise.

No matter how tight the nut on the rod is done up the bush location is guaranteed by the cups and the arm passes thro the bracket without touching the sides of the hole.

Predictably the cups rusted away which means that the bushes are no longer located and the arm can now rub on the side of the hole, wear away and/or break with really scary consequences.

You now have 4 options in order of preference

1 weld on replacements - not easy when the cup did not even have a separate component part number so spares were not part of Rover's original plan. Thats why Doug King decided to fabricate and sell his items.

2 use another method of bush location such as four holes with stubs welded through the brackets on a PDC the same as the OD of the bush to provide a location (of sorts) on both sides of the bracket.

3 fix washers as you have found on your car which attempt to locate the trailing arm instead of the bushes, but allows the rod to touch the washers/bracket, transmit loads of noise, wear out and eventually break.

4 dont bother.

I think 3 and 4 are not acceptable because there is limited location on 3 and no location on 4. In both cases the trailing arm will eventually rub itself away on the hole in the axle bracket.

Number 2 would work from an engineering standpoint because the bushes cannot slide over welded stubs in the same way that they cannot jump out of the cup. However - it would not be a good long term solution.

New cups are the really safe solution and Rimmers have comitted to fabricate new cups out of mild steel, zinc plated, in small qty's, quite soon, I believe.

So there you have it.

This whole situation regarding availability of cups has been clouded by the optional addition of trailing arm washers to prevent body noise being transmitted via the bushes on the (torque tube ) rear cross member.

That is a completely separate issue.

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Ramon

THE JJ · SD1 User Joined: 20 Dec 2007 Posts: 115 Location: wirral

i agree with ramon that once you have obtained cups from rimmers,weld them to the axle hanger bracket.Without cups youre asking for trouble.the cups i showed in the video clip are there as they have not yet been welded to the arm.rimmers have a price of £7.95 +vat each and a code for the limited amount of cups as RO2019.good luck

chris_derby · Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject:

I was hoping not to have to do anymore welding lol! But hey ho, I will order some next weekend when I get paid & fit them as soon as they arrive!
Are they made out of stainless or are they mild steel? How much will a car set cost?

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Auto Vitesse, gonna be a beast!

THE JJ · SD1 User Joined: 20 Dec 2007 Posts: 115 Location: wirral

i think its 36 ish quid/set,i know seems a bit steep for a pressed out cup.i will ask at rimmers tommorow,im on my way down there in a few hours time!i would imagine they are mild steel.If you bought now theres a 20 % sale on chris.Are you touching the diff or halfshaft bearings as part of axle rebuild?
Got to go bobo's now reckon its 150 mile from ch62 west to east accross England is slow going.TTFN JJ